Infinite Worlds, the 2017 debut album from singer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist Vagabon, was a near-instant success. Critics called it “flawless,” “genre-bending,” and—as the notoriously hard-nosed music magazine Pitchfork put it—“victorious.” That acclaim quickly launched the Cameroon-born musician, whose given name is Laetitia Tamko, onto indie rock’s hype list. Within the year, she was opening for industry powerhouse Angel Olsen; by 2019, she’d released her sophomore effort, Vagabon; and in 2020, she headlined her own tour. Now living in Germany and working on her third album, the former engineering student took a break to chat via Zoom with her good friend—stand-up comedian, actor, and writer Jaboukie Young-White. They go deep on all the important stuff: shape-shifters as goals, the virtues of bad music, and making it feel like the first time every time. –Remy Ramirez
Vagabon: We haven’t caught up in a minute.
Jaboukie Young-White: No, it has been a minute. Wait. So, let’s catch everybody up. How did we meet?
V: That’s a good question.
JY-W: I think it was at the Mitski Brooklyn Steel show. I was geeked, I was really geeked. I was with Mitra [Jouhari] and Patti [Harrison]. They were so chill, and I was like, Y’all actin’ like [Vag- abon] isn’t an icon! And then that show at Murmrr. I remember watching you and being like, She sounds exactly the same on the track as she does live. That’s hard.
V: It’s hard out here!
JY-W: Yeah! You’ll be playing an instrument and singing or dancing at the same time, and I’m just receiving your presence and your energy. The tone of your voice is so commanding. It’s doing its thing, it’s inviting you in, and if you wish to lean in, there’s this full, rich experience for you. There’s so much power in that.
V: Oh my God, that’s the biggest compliment! It’s so cool coming from you because I remember when we were backstage and you spoke to me. I was like, No he did not just speak to me. There’s no way he knows who I am. Because it always feels like I [make] niche, underground music. I definitely texted some friends [that night]. I was like, You would not believe who knows of my existence. [Laughs]
JY-W: The feeling is totally mutual. So this was one thing that I was really excited to ask you: When were you like, Okay, I’m getting into music?
V: Well, when I started playing music, I was 17. My parents got me a guitar, and I taught myself to play. But I left it as soon as I graduated high school because I went to college, and college was really demanding. And my parents were not fucking with the whole guitar-playing thing. They were like, This is noise. [Laughs] But when college was about to end, I was like, I’m really about to be an engineer? No. That’s not... That’s when I started picking up the guitar again and going to shows at Brooklyn venues.
DRESS Chopova Lowena, EARRINGS Heron Preston, vintage shirt,
Vagabon’s own nose ring
JY-W: Even just talking to you, I feel like you’re always so emotionally tuned in. I listened to you on [the podcast] Song Exploder, and you were talking about your song “Water Me Down.” You mentioned that you were riffing off of something you were going through at the time and just pulled from your life to make a bop. That’s cool, and it also speaks to how emotionally centered you are.
V: Yeah, that tends to be the way it goes. But I mean, I am completely unhinged; I’m just really good at composure so people don’t know I’m breaking down. But yeah, I think the best stuff is usually improvised, kind of how “Water Me Down” was. And that means that, often, I can’t redo it.
I’m going through this right now because I’m in Germany producing my record. I’m trying to make real vocals, whatever that means, and it’s like, Fuck. Some people sing better with each take, but for me, it gets worse because the emotion is gone. “Water Me Down” was a lesson to trust that first take. It’s the most popular song on my last record, and it’s the song that I probably worked the least on.
JY-W: I relate to that. I definitely have some jokes that were the best the first time I told them. But I don’t get to only use that first time, so I have to work my way back to whatever the [original emotion] was. The process is kind of ephemeral—you’re trying to capture something, your vocals, for you... like a bubble before it bursts. But with your production, I feel like you’re a stickler for tone.
V: I got really good advice from [Grammy-award winning producer] John Congleton. I was so tortured about everything, and he said, “I know you’re a producer. You can do this thing. Just write songs, and think about the production later.” I half-listened to that advice, and the half that I listened to was really, really fun. It was fun to get on the piano and play a song, knowing that I would be able to put whatever I wanted on it later.
JY-W: How do you get from an amazing idea to a finished song? What bridges that gap for you?
V: A shit-ton of experimentation, which is why I made the decision to isolate myself in the German countryside. I wanted the room to explore and experiment with different things because a lot of it sounds bad for a minute before it starts to turn the corner. And sometimes the pressure to constantly [deliver] gives me performance anxiety around actually making shit because I can’t produce at that high of a volume.
JY-W: Nobody can. It’s crazy.
V: Yeah, so how I get from an idea to the finished work is, honestly, time. I need a lot of time to explore different things that sound really bad.
JY-W: How does your collaboration process work?
V: Well the first time was stressful. I just wasn’t used to it. But after being by myself through COVID, I was like, Music would be so much more fun if someone else was around. I still need to feel like I’m far enough along in my own work, though, before I can bring it to collaborators. It’s important for me because part of my worry in collaborating was...
JY-W: Getting swallowed by the process?
V: Yeah. And, you know, if I may talk shit a little bit, I feel like I kind of have a singular vision here.
JY-W: Okay, let’s go! That’s a part of the interview now. Let’s go!
V: [Laughs] But honestly, I can only fuck with people who are respectful of that.
SKIRT Chopova Lowena, vintage shirt, BOOTS Vagabond
TOP Kim Shui, PANTS Krista Howk, BELT Rachel Comey
JY-W: [In the Song Exploder episode] with FKA twigs, she talks about how, when she works with men, she has to be really careful to not just end up some woman trapped inside of a smart boy’s computer. I was wondering if, as a woman in music, you have to constantly assert authorship at every single juncture and venue so it’s not erased from you.
V: I mean, I chose cool people to contribute to this record, but it is hard to be in this body and work with men. Because I’m technical, so why are we acting like I only sang these songs— suddenly everyone has amnesia? And it’s well-meaning, smart people. I’m not trying to talk shit, but it really is challenging because in that position, I have to be the delegator, the executive producer, the songwriter, the talent, the producer—and I have to wrangle everybody’s, like...
JY-W: ...perceptions of you?
V: Exactly!
JY-W: I totally relate to that but in the context of navigating projects that don’t have people like me [on the creative team]. I don’t know what your process is like, but when I sit down to [create], I’m not like, Okay, as a queer person of color... That’s not my first thought. It can be really frustrating when you’re met with that expectation.
V: Yes, exactly.
JY-W: Wait, I want to know more about your next project. You sent me that demo, now I’m like, What’s up?
V: Honestly, I really want my DJ friends to fuck with my music. I want [my new album] to be songs that a DJ or a producer chops up and samples.
JY-W: I feel that. Something that feels really fertile, like it’s bursting with ideas.
V: Yeah, I’m into creating songs and records that can shape-shift because that’s what a good song is to me. There’s a metal remix of “Water Me Down” that’s so cool. If a song can be anything, if it can sound good with any genre of music, then you’ve got a good song. That’s what I’m going for. Wait, I want to ask you something real quick. Are you making more music?
JY-W: I am.
V: Because the song you sent me is so good. Like, it’s so good.
JY-W: Yeah, from a super young age, I was obsessed with music. My dad was a DJ and was really into sound clash culture in Jamaica. He would play barbecues, and festivals, and clubs. So I grew up around music, but I couldn’t sing and I couldn’t play; I was just voraciously into it. Then I went to film school and took a film scoring class that taught me [the basics], but I never had time. When quarantine happened, I couldn’t do stand-up anymore, so I made like 50, 60 demos. I want to share them. I’m going to share them.
V: Damn, I can’t wait to hear it.
JY-W: I’m here. Let’s link up.
V: Oh my God, let’s make it happen. Because I find that when I’m in the flow of music, I need to stay in the flow—even if that means sharing or someone else sharing.
JY-W: Yeah, no, please come through.
V: Because if you did feel moved by me throwing in a little harmony or letting me do a little... I’m just saying: It would be fun. ❤
SHORTS and SHIRT Ganni, UNDERSHIRT Marine Serre,
NECKLACE Heron Preston, BOOTS Vagabond
STORY CREDITS
PHOTOGRAPHY Chris Ozer, STYLIST Alison Lewis GROOMER Gia Harris
CLOTHING CREDITS
NECKLACE Heron Preston, vintage t-shirt,
Vagabon’s own earrings and nose ring
Read more stories
